Episode 110: Elevating New Voices: An Unfiltered Conversation on Educational Inequity

In this special extended interview, Dr. Almitra Berry sits down with Mark Norwood to dive deeper into his personal experiences and perspectives on educational inequity. They discuss the impact of teachers, the importance of cursive writing, and the challenges of policing in schools. Mark shares advice for his younger self and first-year teachers, and emphasizes the need to fight complacency in the education system. This eye-opening conversation provides valuable insights into the systemic failures that have affected generations of students.

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Transcript

Dr Almitra Berry: 0:03

Mark, welcome back equity warriors. Thanks for joining today. We're continuing the special series of elevating new voices and future guest hosts of the 3e podcast. So I'm joined today by Mark Norwood. You heard from Mark in the last episode where he shared his story. I'm excited to have this virtual sit down with Mark so we can dive a little bit deeper and you can get to know him a little bit better.

Unknown: 0:28

Today's guest discussion is so compelling and in depth that we couldn't fit it all into our regular episode. But don't worry, you can hear the full uncut interview on our Patreon page to access this expanded content and support our mission of promoting educational equity. Follow the link in the show notes and become a patreon subscriber. You'll get exclusive access to this eye opening conversation and much more. And now back to the interview. Mark.

Dr Almitra Berry: 0:51

Thanks for joining me.

Unknown: 0:53

Thanks for having me. Doctor Barry,

Dr Almitra Berry: 0:55

you know when I listened to your story first, I loved it. It made me laugh. It made me cuss. Made me roll my eyes. Maybe cuss a little bit more. Or, I should say, use, use. My colorful language, my not school language, but in so many different places, I connected with your lived experience. You know, having had something similar myself. So I'm I'm one thing I'm really curious about, of all of the things that you had happen in your life, all of your lived experiences, your your, you know, as a child and then as an educator, that whole life story, what made you choose this chapter to share with us?

Unknown: 1:36

I thought about my my career growth, where I've been possibly held back because of certain things, that certain knowledge that I that I didn't have. And while, you know, as an adult, I have that I have responsibility now, and I can go back and take care of those things, well, not really go back, but move forward and take care of those things. But I keep finding myself stuck in the mud sometimes, and when that happens, I go back to this moment. So I kind of look at that moment as a as a big change early in my life, a big change in my life that kind of changed or guided my trajectory, not so much in the most positive way.

Dr Almitra Berry: 2:19

One of the things that first jumped out at me when I listened. It was, you know, it's like, I think your dad or your parents and my mom came from the same school of parenting. So, you know, your parents just said you couldn't go to high school where you wanted to.

Unknown: 2:38

Well, it's funny, you mentioned not going to the high school that I wanted to the neighborhood High School. Shout out to to Crenshaw High. Crenshaw cougars, that's the neighborhood I grew up in. I didn't go to Crenshaw High. I actually went to St Bernard's High School. That's who played Del Rey around the corner from Westchester High School. And I you know, everything aside that the story that I told you know I had a fairly good high school experience outside of that issue, sure, I was a classroom teacher and an administrator in both Compton unified and LA Unified for about 15 years, and when I look at students that came came through my classroom, you know, I saw a wide range of students from parents maybe we would say underserved or poor, poor family, poor households, lower socioeconomic households. And on the other end of the gamut, you know, I had some students who came from fairly wealthy neighborhoods and wealthy families, and I could really see the difference in how those students approached school, approached my class. There were students where missing homework was out of the question. And when I looked closely at them, I really did see a correlation between their households, whether it was two parent households, whether they were, quote, unquote, well off, or if they were struggling, and I did, I definitely saw a correlation between how they approached school. Going back to my own upbringing, I was fortunate to come from a two parent household with two loving parents that took well care of me, but they really didn't have a great knowledge of of education, of the education system. I'm not going to say they weren't smart, but they certainly weren't. They weren't college educated. They weren't educated in the current system.

Dr Almitra Berry: 4:30

You know, I had and we taught similar populations, you and I, mine was just up in Stockton, but my kids, my when I was, well, I should start with when I was in the high school, it did have a much more affluent population of students. And there the the bigger challenge with with parents was that if they if the students were not getting the grades the parents expected them to, the parents were on my back. I'll put it that way. Um. I'm complaining, threatening to sue if their kid didn't get a certain grade in class. I'm like, go ahead, sue me. You know, I'm a beginning teacher. I have no money and I have student loan debt. Go for it. See what you get. Your kid drives a better car than I do, and that was part of what, what encouraged me to go down or change neighborhoods, change school districts, and go to a school that where the kids were coming from, housing project, homes of low wealth, my multilingual learners and all black and brown children, for the most part, to be able to do something that was going to do good for kids who had limited opportunities, right? And that's part of what shaped what I came to feel is like we, we the educational system, have failed generations of black and brown people, so my parents, not my own personal parents, the parents of my students, they had already been through our system, and our system had failed them. So I felt like my responsibility was to make sure that my students understood they could do anything they wanted to do, and that I was there to help them get there and to advise parents when I could, if I could, if they were, were open to it, but one of the things I never wanted to do myself, and that I encourage other people, not only when I was a classroom teacher, but throughout my career, is to recognize our parents have been failed by our systems. We cannot expect our parents to be the primary educator when it comes to our foundational skills and the content we're teaching in the classroom. That's on us, right? And we're the ones who need to show our students that they can go to college if they choose, they can go to trade school if they choose, they can go to the military if they choose, but it should be their choice, not because we fail another generation of kids and say, well, here's your option. So Compton and Stockton, not that different, not

Unknown: 7:12

much different, not that different. And you know, I was only in Compton for a year, and my intention when I when I joined Compton unified, honestly, that's where I was going to serve out my my teaching days, my teaching career, was only my second year in the system. In the system, it was only my second year in education. And you see how that slips out, because we're so programmed, right? It's so systematic. We're so programmed. So I was in the Compton unified system, but not for very long, because it was not how can I put it? I was too young and too new in the profession to really understand what I was seeing. I just know that I didn't see it there. I didn't see what I thought needed, that I needed to see, not only not necessarily at the school level, because I actually worked at a pretty great school, Stephen Foster elementary I worked under a great principal, Dr Denise price. She had a lot of faith in me, gave me a lot of opportunity, and I appreciated it. Problems that I saw actually came from the district level, and the amount of bureaucracy and the difficulty of getting resources at the at our school sites, the

Dr Almitra Berry: 8:18

bureaucracy is something that bugged me as well, and you didn't talk about this in your story, but now that you mention it, I was I was I was that parent, that teacher, that PTA member who was at every single school board meeting to remind them what their responsibility was and making sure that we got the assets, I call them now, the assets that we needed to teach, but even when they gave us curriculum, and part of my personal issue was that they were making choices that didn't reflect the needs of the children that were in my Classroom, right? So they were saying, This is what you use, and we're saying, But this ain't working. You know, if we want to get our children, you know, to be able to read, write, think, calculate at grade level on time, we need to do what works for them. Not I'm going to put this as I'm going to put this in a very plain way, not whatever materials come from the company that you're in bed with, but I want to talk about your Mr. M sure, because I had a Mr. And I say his name, I had a Mr. Nado. And Mr. Nado was my high school trigonometry teacher for about three days at that point. You know it was my junior year. I think it was my junior it was my junior. Year, and I had enough math to graduate. I had already met the UC requirement, so, you know, I wasn't worried about any more math, but it was the next class to take, and I was a bit of a rule follower, right? If that was where I needed to go, that's where I was going to go. But he was. So, as opposed to your Mr. M, Mr. Naddo was just blatantly mean. And so when I think about the experiences, whenever someone tells me about an experience with an educator that could have really destroyed their whole life in terms of their path to greater opportunity or greater education. I was, I think about him, I know that he is, as is your Mr. M at the exception to the rule that we have tons of phenomenal educators and counselors out there, but it only takes one person with a classroom, especially at the high school level, you're seeing 150 kids a day. How many lives can you ruin in a year with one bad teacher, so or

Unknown: 10:51

in a lifetime, if you think about it, yeah, how you affect that one particular person and how that affects the people that that person affects over their lifetime?

Dr Almitra Berry: 11:03

Yeah. I mean, think about it. We're sitting here talking, you know, how many years later, let's not count 40 years plus later, about how a teacher in high school still sticks in our head, or, you know, an education Well, yours was a teacher as well. So let's talk about Mr. M and how he Well, use my school language, how he messed up part of your education, rather

Unknown: 11:40

than being mean, like, like, your instructor, he was the absolute opposite. He was very, very nice. He was very enduring. He was very kind. Brought me to his office, let me sit down. And a lot of times I would just sit on the couch and read magazines or just kind of thumb through the books on his on his bookshelf. A lot of time there, there was not much communication. You just, you say, just, just have a seat, wait it out, and then when the bell rings, you can head back to class. So I do

Dr Almitra Berry: 12:09

you think that at, you know, and it's, it's suspicion, reflection, whatever. Do you think that maybe he took you away from the APS office because having another adult administrator understand what you were going through might mess up what he was doing.

Unknown: 12:25

Well, you know, I use the example of an abuser when I last spoke, and abusers try to separate the abused from their friends and families. Yeah, so I look at it as if he was trying to separate me from anyone that could possibly intervene in what he was doing.

Dr Almitra Berry: 12:49

Yeah. So maybe some of that was a little bit of covering his own tail. Possibly

Unknown: 12:55

I could. I could also see, you know, as a as a person of color and Mr. M and then myself. It could be argued that he just wanted, he did, didn't want to see another, you know, young brother in the principal's office. Until I began to, kind of, he, he just wanted to see another brother in the army, in the army, maybe, yeah. But then I began to kind of see, kind of sniff out what was happening and and so that that feeling went out the window, and I began to see something much more sinister.

Dr Almitra Berry: 13:27

So one of the things, another thing that sort of jumped out at me, and you know, I knew this from from past conversation, was that you went to Catholic school, which where I grew up, up in Stockton. Nobody black went to Catholic school. The only people that went the only black people that went to Catholic school were the superior home, superior the phenomenal athletes. Do you think your your experiences would have been different had you gone to Crenshaw? Academically?

Unknown: 13:58

Likely, yes. And But first off, I gotta be I have to be clear, I didn't realize I was black until about the fifth grade.

Dr Almitra Berry: 14:07

Now that's a new thing, right? When did? Just started happening, and it's all over social media right now. The moment I figured I learned I was black, when so you learned you were black

Unknown: 14:20

listening to K rock and KL OS. I started going to kgL, h and k day. I know, I realized there was something different going on there. Yeah, I didn't realize I was black until about the fifth grade. And the reason why that is, and it's sort of, I'm saying this sort of to to lead to an answer to your question as it relates to growing up in Catholic schools. You know, my parents are from New Orleans. My mother from falls River, Louisiana, my father from New Orleans, here in South LA, South Central LA, there were a lot more black students in Catholic schools because, well, those Catholic schools were in black neighborhoods. And so that part first, right now to your original to your question, would my education experience been different? That. Lastly, and probably based on what I know now as an adult, I would venture to say it would not have been good. I more than likely, considering that I had a difficult time with my behavior, behavior issues. But like I said, the big thing was just talking. But who knows would have been if I would have gone to the public school where there was less oversight, many more students, many, many more classrooms and teachers, and much easier to get lost in the shuffle there and kind of just get away with anything right, at least in my school that the Catholic schools that I went to, smaller classrooms, fewer students, there was more, how can I say it? We were we were much more easily seen. So when it comes to the behavior issues, those things can be nipped in the bud right away. Now, when it comes to the education, I still struggle with that, because over time, what I've found is that private schools, or Catholic schools specifically, tend to get teachers that are less experienced. I may have gained much more knowledge as far as the practical goals, but I think what was really missing was the was the love and the enduring nature of a teacher. So that's one thing that I do appreciate from being in the Catholic school system, most of my team

Dr Almitra Berry: 16:24

have really neat party. Have really do you have really neat handwriting?

Unknown: 16:29

Yes, my handwriting is pretty good, and I still it's funny. You mentioned that I absolutely believe in cursive writing. And one thing that I learned some time ago, since it was brought up, is that cursive writing is, as far as I understand, is one is, if not, the only way that academically instructors can link the left and the right side of the brain. So, you know, you have one brain, sure. So right handed, right handed folks are left brain, you know, left handed folks are right brain, like one, one side manages that that technical side, the other side is art. Well, when you think about cursive writing, it is both technical and art, right, both at the same time. So at a very young age, starting what I think cursive writing was a second grade skill, we begin to learn to link those, those two sides of the brain. So it's very important. Now, once we got rid of cursive, what other activity was going to fill in that gap? I can't think of another activity actually fills in that gap.

Dr Almitra Berry: 17:32

I've been on a cursive writing vendor, as it were, on social media. It's just, it's, you know, we do have more and more states are withdrawing the standard, or the requirement, for kids to learn how to write in cursive. When I was teaching, I had, well, first I can say, my teachers always said that I was going to have to be a doctor when I grew up because my handwriting was atrocious. It was like works for me, type of doctor that they said or that they were thinking, but, you know, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't a priority in our system to make sure that I had fantastic handwriting. They were more concerned with, you know, the the more academic endeavors, as it were. Yes, so

Unknown: 18:16

the uneducated, educated,

Dr Almitra Berry: 18:18

an uneducated, educated, uneducated, educated

Unknown: 18:21

didn't see the value and it didn't understand what it was actually worth. Yeah,

Dr Almitra Berry: 18:26

so I started teaching, and I was teaching when I moved down to the elementary high school, I could print. Nobody really cared, as long as, you know, kids show up, they can read the assignment on the board or whatever, and we're on our merry way. But in teaching sixth graders, I had to teach handwriting, and I had to teach cursive, you know, I had to demand that my students responded in cursive, and I practiced before I moved down to the elementary I spent all summer long practicing on a whiteboard my cursive handwriting, trying to make sure that what I wrote was technically correct, Right, that I was using proper deneal in cursive writing and all of that stuff. And so the first day or two in my classroom as a sixth grade teacher, everything on the board is in cursive. I'm writing in cursive on the this dates me on the overhead projector. Remember those things? And one of my kids finally said, Miss B, I can't read what you're writing. And I'm looking, I'm going, that is, like, really nice handwriting. What do you mean you can't write it? And a couple other kids got a little brave, and they said, I can't read it either. And I, you know, it's still a fairly new teacher. It was only my third year in the classroom. Like, what do you mean? You can't read it. I didn't understand that they weren't saying that it wasn't me. It was that they had never learned to decode make the connection. They couldn't decode cursed handwriting because they had not been taught, and that it was one of. Those little epiphanies I had that this is an important skill that our children have not learned. Of course, my kids couldn't, for the most part. We, we they were horrifically underperforming. I'll put it that way, the average reading level of my sixth grade classroom was, was second grade, which is how I ended up in the pathway that that I still walk now, but just that we miss that, and what else would impact them from that lack of knowledge, that lack of a technical skill and being able to decode cursive handwriting, anyhow, that's my

Unknown: 20:34

little cursor. Well, one thing for sure, they wouldn't be able to read the Declaration of Independence. No, they wouldn't. Let's start with that. Aside, there's a lot of older documents, a lot of history, lot of knowledge. Constitution

Dr Almitra Berry: 20:45

has written in script, Curse of handwriting when you are a a history teacher, especially with founding documents. But I think even some some early literature where you can read things that the the the author had handwritten letters that are handwritten. Those, those primary resource documents are it's so important for people to be able to interact with those because I think one thing that we show in our handwriting actually is our emotion. And if you don't think that's true, look at a seventh grade girl's writing and see how many times you see a heart instead of a dot over an i or a j, right? Well, let's stay on crime. Why not you get a degree in criminal justice?

Unknown: 21:30

Yes, with a focus in law enforcement,

Dr Almitra Berry: 21:33

I was always concerned once I got to my my little Elementary School in the hood, with what happened to my children after they left the campus. You know, at the end of the day over the weekend, there were, I was, I'm a self professed worker, right? So as a classroom teacher, I was usually at my school at six o'clock in the morning, you know, an hour and a half, two hours before first bell, I would work after school sometimes, until, you know, five o'clock at night, and the custodian would come in to my classroom and he'd say, Miss B, it's time for you to get out of here. And it's like, I know, but I only have a little, you know, I know it's been a long day, whatever, not realizing initially. And he said, No, I need to walk you to your car. You need to be out of this neighborhood, because things are going to change in about a half an hour. But there's so much that happens in the lives of our children after we leave that space that if we can change their lives in any way, it has to happen in the you know, however many instructional minutes a day it is that that that they're in classrooms just thinking about what can happen to them, and even more so now what's changed is that we have more and more police officers on campus. And you know, I was, I feel like I have do a disclaimer. Actually did a great show on time with a former police chief. I'd have to look it up, because I don't remember the episode number I grew up. The cops that I knew growing up were my two uncles, one who became Deputy Chief of Police. Here, we're keeping it in the family, and my and my, you know, then future stepfather, who is also a cop, you know. So I knew cops, but they were family, right? So I didn't have that same experience or trepidation. I recognize name, claim, own, that little bit of privilege I had in that regard, but too many of our kids in our schools a we shouldn't have that system, a system of privilege, because you're related to or know somebody on the police force. If you're black or brown, you might get a pass if you live to the point where they're actually looking at the back of your driver's license. But you know when we were think about when we were kids, if you got in, well, maybe your experience was different, but if you got in a fight at school, you went to the principal's office, you talked it out, you shook hands, maybe you got suspended for a day, or you went back to class, right? That was the end of it. Now they're taking these kids away from school in handcuffs, you know, and really just changing their whole lives because of that,

Unknown: 24:23

which is sad, very ridiculous, you're taking kids away for very human reactions to situations. You know, students learn, young people, we we learn to fight, we learn not to fight. But it's, it's really kind of a part of growing up, how to manage those aggressions and manage emotions. But then when you bring in the police and students that are doing what I would consider fairly normal behavior, you're taking them away in handcuffs, you're demonizing them simply for being human in their environment. I have a question you mentioned. The the bullets ricocheting off the ground and and you having your students go through your own drill. I had, I had a very similar experience on different occasions, and I'm curious if your experience was the same as mine, in the sense that the students were much, much more used to it than I was, and the students really didn't become flustered. I was the one that had the problem, and they never even ducked or paid much attention to it. So Mr. Norwood, that's normal. We hear that every night. So I was sad to find that my students were sort of going with going through what I went through, and they were used to it, at accepting of it.

Dr Almitra Berry: 27:12

But yeah, my kids were so desensitized to all of it, and it, in some ways, just broke my heart. You know, thinking that this is, this is your normal, yeah, and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a lot of times in an sort of interview, although this isn't an interview, but in reflecting, people will ask you something like, If you could go back and give yourself some advice, knowing what you know now, what would you tell your 18 year old self? Don't answer that question, because I think that that when we're talking about education, advice to your 18 year old self is a little bit too late, right? So given your given your lived experience. What would you go back and tell your maybe, end of the eighth grade, rising freshman self? What would you tell Mark

Unknown: 28:05

I would have told my, say, 15 year old self at that point that this is up to you, and you're going to have to take this seriously, and you cannot let anybody dictate your future to you at this point, if I have goals beyond this, it's going to be up to me to to advocate for myself, to make sure it happens. And that is absolutely something that I did not do. I kind of I allowed someone to continue to dictate to me what my future was going to be

Dr Almitra Berry: 28:37

you were compliant. I was compliant. Yeah, which,

Unknown: 28:42

depending on that, doesn't mean burn down the school, start fights or, you know, go throw eggs at the teacher's car, but speak up for yourself. They just have to speak for yourself. So that very first day when that teacher changed my grade, I did speak up for myself, and then she explained to me why she did it, and I kind of went along. I went along. Don't go along. Yeah, don't go along. Don't go along with Bs, yeah.

Dr Almitra Berry: 29:07

So staying on that same, same train of thought, so to speak, what would you tell your first year teacher self, because you talked about your experience in the classroom. What would you tell Mark, the first year teacher, you know that first week or first year that you're in the classroom?

Unknown: 29:25

Well, you know at that when I as a first year teacher, I was already coming out of college. I was always I was already a bit of a militant and I had already learned to sort of buck the system. I joined a fraternity in college, and we were we were very active on our campus. I was part of the Black Student Union and the Black Law Society. You can

Dr Almitra Berry: 29:49

go ahead and throw them up. I've had others

Unknown: 29:56

shout out to omega psi, Phi Fraternity, Incorporated row I ro Iota, Iota chapter and Chi beta chapter of Long Beach State. I So, coming out of college, if I can go back and tell my first year teacher something I would say to that first year teacher, stay the course. I I had a I had a vision in mind. Coming out of college. I was excited about going into this profession. It was a very clear reason as to why I went into it. I didn't fall into it. I Something happened in my life to change my trajectory. So I went to it purposefully. I went into administration because I I was having such a hard time with some of the things that we've spoken about, like, how do I manage these concerns? How do I manage struggling students? How do I manage the home life? You know, students coming to school not having, not having been fed, students coming to school with dirty clothes on, students not having really a vision for their own future, and I was struggling with managing that from the classroom, so I thought that I can do a better job doing that as an administrator, which in some cases, is true, stay the course, would have been the advice that I give to my first year Teacher.

Dr Almitra Berry: 31:13

There's so much that happens that, you know, we, we, as we talk about education, what's happening in schools, what could be happening in schools depending on what happens in the next election. I always think, what, what's, what's my sort of personal tipping point, right? So when I sign off. On the show, I always I paraphrase Dr Angela Davis, one of my sheroes, who said, I'm no longer accepting the things I cannot change. I am changing the things I cannot accept. So I always like to ask folks, what is the thing you cannot accept when we're talking about K 12, public education, what is that thing? And then is there something that people who hear this show can do to help change it.

Unknown: 31:58

Sure. The thing that I can't cannot accept is complacency. You know, my father used to have a phrase he would say, or get off the pot. Yeah, she or get off the pot, right? So don't be complacent. Don't simply accept the things that are going on around you, and the way we can fight that complacency. I have three things in mind. Number one is to encourage self awareness. Encourage our not only our students, but our families as our parents, to be self aware and for them to notice when things aren't quite right and when maybe a change in themselves might be necessary if, because, if a parent or even a student sees things happening and they don't like what they're seeing, well, what is your role in it? And is there a need for a change in yourself in order for you to to help help your child and to fight this battle. So don't so encourage self awareness. Secondly, we have to celebrate success. We have to celebrate not only our students success, but our colleagues success, our family success and success within in the community, to put it simply, stop the hate we have to stop hating on each other and and just acknowledge, acknowledge the success and be supportive of that success genuinely. And finally, the third thought that comes to mind is encourage observation. We want an encouraging observation. Pay attention to your surroundings. Watch the news, read the newspaper, even if it's not the greatest newspaper. Find one that that not necessarily that fits your needs, because what good is it if you're just being fed information that you already that you already agree with? Right? So we have to be able to bounce it off something, and have have debates, so encouraging observation, and then do things like number one, listening to this podcast. So when you listen to podcasts like this and others, you're getting more knowledge, more information about what's going on in the world and about what's going on in the education community as it relates to to equity and and lack thereof. So listen to podcasts, read publications, watch YouTube videos, on on on the information that you're looking for Google something, Google project 25 be aware of what that is. Let's start with that when I talk about encouraging observations. So those are my three bullet points, as far as how people can fight off complacency, encouraging self awareness, celebrating success and encouraging observation.

Dr Almitra Berry: 34:54

That's awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, my guest today has been Mark Norwood, and you will be hearing from Mark flying solo from time to time in the future, because I need to step away a little bit every once in a while to continue working on that research for my next book, which is focused on English only multilingual learners. You know those kids who speak African American English, Chicano English, Jamaican Patois, Appalachian English and so on. Mark, I want to thank you for joining me. I always enjoy talking to you and sort of hashing stuff out. Equity warriors, we are on a precipice. An historic election is less than 100 days away. Understand the assignment Mark mentioned project 2025, our schools stand to suffer a seismic change if the Republicans take control of the White House. So follow my series. I dissect project 2020, Project 2020 five's plan for education, my goal is to reveal what is in there and to arm you with the truth what you need to know. And then join me again next episode. If you've got a question, topic, question, something like you'd like to have covered a special request, I put it down in the notes. You can text me directly. Look in the notes for that link. I want to hear your stories as well. Who knows? You might be a guest host like Mark as well. And then remember, don't worry about things you cannot change. Vote to change the things you cannot accept. You.