Educational Equity Emancipation
“We have to do better”… That’s Dr. Almitra Berry’s heart-felt answer when asked about educating children from diverse cultural and language backgrounds.
Dr. Berry has a strong message for educators and school system leaders who don’t understand that cultural differences can profoundly affect the quality of education these children experience…
“You have children with failing test scores. You have teachers who want to teach but aren’t given the freedom or allowed to use the tools and strategies they need. You have teachers leaving the profession in droves.
And you have tax-paying parents who are very dissatisfied with their children’s education but don’t know how to effect change.”
In other words, our education system has a crisis on its hands. And this crisis affects all of us, not just teachers and those in the educational establishment.
It’s a crisis we must address if we’re going to have an exceptional nation with school systems free of systemic oppression.
We need to take it to heart. We need to act on Dr. Berry’s message. It’s a message she’s deeply passionate about.
As an educator, speaker, and author, she focuses on the education of the most historically marginalized: culturally and linguistically diverse learners.
She has worked diligently for over 30 years to help marginalized learners, learners of color, of linguistic and cultural diversity in low-wealth urban school districts, experience higher academic achievements.
Dr. Berry is on a mission. A mission bigger than herself. A mission to change the conversation happening around the topics of education, equity, and intellectual emancipation for culturally and linguistically diverse learners.
But she can’t do it alone. So she’s looking for leaders to join her. Is that you?
If you’re nodding your head and saying “Yes!” as you read this, we invite you to subscribe and listen to The Educational Equity, Emancipation Podcast.
Educational Equity Emancipation
Episode 119: Transforming School Meals: An Equity-Focused Conversation with Dennis Thomas
In this episode, Dr. Amitra Berry interviews Dennis Thomas, the former Vice President of Strategic Development at Organic Life and founder of DT Global Consulting. With a wealth of experience in business development in the education food service industry, Dennis is passionate about driving growth and innovation and meeting the needs of marginalized children They discuss the state of food service in marginalized communities, including issues around the quality and nutritional value of food provided in school lunch programs. Thomas shares his insights on the disparities and challenges faced by students in accessing healthy, equitable meals, and advocates for changes to ensure all children have access to nutritious food in a secure environment.
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If you're a parent, teacher or school leader and you're sick and tired of the frustration, anger and unfair treatment of children at high risk in our public schools, then perhaps it's time for all of us to do something about it. In this podcast, Dr amitra Berry brings you tips, tools, strategies and tactics to build successful solutions while touching, moving and inspiring all of us to transform our schools so that every child thrives. Here's your host. Dr Berry,
Dr Almitra Berry:hey, there equity warriors. Today I welcome an old friend, but it will be a voice that you all know. Today, I welcome Dennis Thomas. He's the former Vice President of Strategic Development at organic life and founder of dt global consulting with a wealth of experience in business development, in the education, food service industry. Dennis is passionate about driving growth and innovation and meeting the needs of marginalized children, so join me today as we explore his insights on the state of food service in marginalized communities.
Unknown:Today's guest discussion is so compelling and in depth that we couldn't fit it all into our regular episode. But don't worry, you can hear the full uncut interview on our Patreon page. To access this expanded content and support our mission of promoting educational equity, follow the link in the show notes and become a patreon subscriber. You'll get exclusive access to this eye opening conversation and much more. And now back to the interview.
Dr Almitra Berry:Dennis, thanks for being here with me today.
Unknown:Glad to be a part of the team. All right. Well, you
Dr Almitra Berry:know what I may ask you for more, so be careful what you say. Let's start by something, maybe a pivotal moment in your life. How did you get into the food service industry, and what was it that influenced your decision to launch DT global consulting?
Unknown:Yeah, I, I appreciate that. I I started when I was younger in Virginia, actually, and my mom and dad, you know, we grew up under, under the poverty belt, so to speak. I thought at times when we were poor, we had more money than than most people, but we didn't know that we were getting subsidy from the government, but you know, young kids, we didn't even know that. My mom drove a school bus for 17 years, as well as worked in the cafeteria, so when I went through the school line, I'm getting fries and pizza more than most students, and I was happy about it. But I think as as as I grew up, knowing what the world is, the way it is, I got into the food service, out of the business, knowing that, why did one person get a meal more of something versus the other? And then, as we continue to get educated in this population, and even more so we found out that, oh, wait a minute, there's some that's not getting any at all. But why? It was because they didn't have enough money. And so a lot of times, I started sharing my meals with everything, with with students growing up. And then as you get the adulthood and everything, you find the really disparities that's going on as far as how people treat you. And when I got to some of the major companies that I worked for over my years, you see it even more so, and I started focusing more on, wait a minute, give them as much as you've given this individual, and trying to make it as equal as possible. So, you know, with many of the other companies that I've worked with, Compass Group, North America, Leo, Revolution Foods and organic life, it's seeing what those disparities are and trying to make a difference. Which is why, from a consulting standpoint, now being able to go into those districts and find out what's most important to the students in the district in order to make make sure everything is equal.
Dr Almitra Berry:You know, I don't think a lot of people, or even as a teacher, I'll say I didn't really think about how much the food service could impact our children's lives. In my last two classrooms. Last two schools I was assigned to all of my children got free, free lunch. No reduce. They all got breakfast. They all got lunch. And my challenge was always the junk they would bring from home that they had in their backpacks, and trying to get that away from them. Of course, I had my own way, and I did is like, you get breakfast, you get lunch. I need you to eat healthy food. So as a classroom teacher, I could sort of do my own thing and confiscate things like Hot Cheetos because they were not nutritious. And so we had, I literally, I kid you not. I had at the bottom drawer of my file cabinet in my classroom was filled with hot Cheetos. But what I would do was, every Friday we. Have this, this game, this behavior game. We ran, I ran in my classroom, and if the class could behave all week long. But I think about some of the stuff that gets into our kids, where that comes from when, yes, nutritious meals may be provided at school, but there is a lack of knowledge, or there's a whole lot of marketing being done by my podcast. I can say this crap food that gets into children who don't know any better in their households. How do you think, or what's your perspective on the whole food service industry, but also food that gets into the type of food that gets into marginalized communities.
Unknown:Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that doctor Barry, it it's it's sad, because you know, as you and I know now, we even post COVID, we can walk into a grocery store, prices that went up, but you know what? They never went down. And when you look at the the state of food nowadays, the quality control, there is no quality control anymore. You see things on a shelf. And when now do we have to go and check the expiration date to make sure that they're not serving us something that's going to expire tomorrow that we thought was going to last a week. So imagine going into those school districts who is ordering food by the tons because they've negotiated a price with major companies like us foods or Cisco, many of those companies who order in the tons of of meals for school districts around the country ahead of time. But are you really getting the the quality of food? Yes, they they order a salad, but, you know, maybe there's a cucumber recall. Well, are they going to throw all those cucumbers away? Well, what's the what was the date on it? Well, we could serve those. And it's like, Wait a minute. You're kidding, you know. So you know.
Dr Almitra Berry:So wait a minute, are you telling me that there, that there is a chance, big chance, little chance, but a chance that what's being served to our children in schools, under school lunch programs is unexpired, tainted, recalled, possibly food.
Unknown:Yeah, because the there's several things that go on behind the scenes. You know, the Department of Defense gives free fresh fresh fruit and vegetables to school districts when they apply for those for those grants. There's also commodities that are given to the district ordered a year ahead, but they have to use those commodities within a certain period of time. But there's nobody on the district side that will say, Okay, here's the commodities that's being delivered. Okay, let's go through and now let's check to make sure that they're not expired. We went to one when I was with my former company and went to a district the commodities and their canned food and everything, but the date on them was from 2021 so you have to ask yourself, Okay, you know it's sitting on the shelf. It can be used, but how long is the expiration date? If you see an expiration date, there's a reason that it's on it, you know. So a lot of times, especially with the meat, you know, even with meat, when you know, you there is various varieties, as we know, when we go into restaurants, of chicken, you know, do you get the white chicken? Do you get this kind of chicken? Well, in school districts, are you Is it even chicken? Yeah, and which is why the kids call it mystery meat sometimes, but now we're urging a lot of the parents and teachers like you were previously to get more involved. Is, hey, you see it on Facebook. You see it on various pictures. Now, what is this? Would you let your child eat this? So you know it now goes back to the having the chef mentality, and why we have to have our students when they're looking at their food, you know, there's some there's a reason why they separate their food. But hey, what is your meal size, as far as with, you know, your salads, your portion size, as far as your vegetables, if you can get the all the fresh fruit and vegetables that you can eat. Why is it only just apples and oranges out? Where's the rest of the where's the rest of the fruit that they can order? You know? I'm
Dr Almitra Berry:going to, I'm going to, I'm going to challenge you. Do you know what those seven are? Can you tell us? Oh,
Unknown:not offhand, but we know the former running Vice President with Kamala Harris, Tim Minnesota, is one of those? Most of it is in these in the Midwest states. Okay, I believe the USDA is trying to introduce that that that goes across the country in the next two years. But sadly, if that happens, it's taking money out of somebody's hands. And so the company political, the political arms behind the scenes are fighting it sad to say, it's almost like health care.
Dr Almitra Berry:It's like, wait a minute, it's money, everything. It's always about the money, and it's not about the children. Yeah,
Unknown:yeah, because now it's Hey, well, if we do universal free breakfast and we do universal free lunch in school districts. Well, I'm sorry, why can't we do that in prisons? Well, why can't we do that? You see how it all goes.
Dr Almitra Berry:Don't they get free food in prison? Or do they have to pay for it? Oh, no,
Unknown:there. There's companies that run prison food, just like they do with school districts and everything else. And sad to say, you know, you know prison food. Sometimes they have to meet a certain standard as well. And while they got those time in prisons, what is one of the prisoners do? They'll sue the company. This is not, this is not healthy based on this. They got all their time to research everything. Yeah,
Dr Almitra Berry:yeah, okay. We're not going to go to prison reform today, right outside that is, that is not my lane, but we are going to find out. We are going to find out which seven states besides Minnesota, have that universal free lunch, and we'll make sure that we put that either in the show notes or post to social media, because I think that's important for people to know. And then how do we if you do not have universal free lunch in your state? I'm just going to venture a guess that that that's something that a governor or state legislature pushes for.
Unknown:Yes, you're exactly right. Yep. Again,
Dr Almitra Berry:the decades ago, back when I was in high school, we we could leave campus, and it had nothing to do with how many, how many credits you had. It's just this lunch time you can go just, you know, come back. Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't, but within just a few blocks of where my high school was located, because I was on, you know, South Side for us, but I was in a more low income my high school was in a low income area. We had a churches, a KFC, a Denny's, a Burger King, a McDonald's, a Taco Bell and a couple of mom and pop spots. So we all left campus. I don't I never, not once in high school, did I ever eat in the cafeteria. I don't know what they served in the cafeteria, because churches had 99 cents. You could get a piece of chicken, a biscuit and a soda. Wow. And, you know, that was a long time ago. It's probably 399 now, not the most nutritious thing. And then my junior and senior year, I worked at the Burger King down the street, and we were always packed for lunch. Kids were always coming in for lunch that because that's what kids wanted to eat. Now, I was in high school, I was, you know, as many of us were, we weren't thinking about nutrition, and I think even when I was, when I was teaching at the high school, that they had made arrangements for carts or kiosks. So on campus, I don't know if they still have those, but we had, I think was Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, and a couple other options, where they had carts that came on campus and kids were buying directly on campus from the places that they normally would have left campus to go eat. Now
Unknown:they got those at the college and university level. Most of the school districts, they're they're not able to do that based upon the rights of that management company to refuse it. They're like, Well, wait a minute, we we do catering. So they want that money for catering. Well, wait a minute. We can do this. We can have we'll make all the pizza and do those things as well. Like you said, sadly, it still goes back to how much money are they able to make. And look the margins, you know, conference group, there's a reason why they're doing, you know, 28 $29 billion a year around the around the world. And you know, a lot of that educational part of the business, outside of all the baseball fields and arenas around the country, that makes a significant amount of money, and it's guaranteed money from the federal government and our tax dollars, you know, they get reimbursed for those things. So, you know, the resources, the resources are there even in the in the black community, you know, I think the whole opportunity for blacks to access the food and resources they need, it's all there. Sometimes it's just educating where to find it. Yeah,
Dr Almitra Berry:and I know you focused on, you know, and that's, that's your area. And something I talk about all the time is the black community, but I'm going to venture a guess that the Latino community is not very different, right? When it comes to, I mean, we're, it's, it's demographic shift, it's black to brown, or it's brown to black, but it's the same neighborhoods and the same opportunities or options for food.
Unknown:You're exactly right when it comes to that as well. Is, you know, when it comes to the menus with some of the management companies, why are you not putting into those type of varieties on the menu for Latinos as well as those of color? And making sure that, culturally, they're going to eat the food because they're, you know, there's, there's some that because of the religious reasons, they can't eat the food as well, so they go outside, you know, yeah, yeah.
Dr Almitra Berry:As one who does not eat pork or shellfish, I can definitely relate to that. You know, so often that the there's, there's, there's something in the food that cannot be eaten. I think I had a student who was a devout Muslim as a sixth grader, and there were so many times where she couldn't eat what was in the cafeteria. So I sort of made it a point to make sure that she always had a food. But also space in my classroom during lunch time, where if there was something going on in the cafeteria and she was, it was just her and her siblings were the only ones that were in that whole school that were devout Muslims. And so it made it much more difficult for her, but to provide that, that space, and especially during Ramadan, you know, where they're fasting all day long, and creating that, that space for her to not have to sit in the cafeteria watching everybody else and smell everybody else's food at a time when you can eat. There's, there's a lot that goes on about food in our schools that we don't we don't always pay a lot of attention to. Well,
Unknown:imagine me even, even with the reason why is the boards are electing the superintendent in the superintendent's administration, usually the business office, the business manager is overseeing the Food Service Program, the transportation, the janitor, all of those programs. Yet there's nothing wrong with the parent asking, I'd like to have a quarterly report from the company that's running our food service program of what's new, what's going to be on the menu? What are we looking forward to this year? Because last year, just in the state of Illinois, with over 200 requests for proposals for food service coming out to bid, many companies are coming in there and they'll lowball the price. Or it's like, wait a minute, if you've been operating our district for five years, all of a sudden, you dropping it by$250,000 so that means either one or two things. You're either cutting the program some way, shape or form, by labor or the food, or you've been ripping us off, so to speak, for the past five years. You know, yeah, especially if food cost has gone up. It's like, wait a minute, something's not making sense, but those are where we educate. When we come in, it's like, oh, here's a nutritionist, here's a former director, here's a former superintendent. What? What are you looking for when you come into this program? And now, when we're able to uncover a lot of those cost savings to get the best of the best meals, everybody gets happy. You know, let
Dr Almitra Berry:me ask you one question. Then I want to go again. There are so many questions going through my head now. Part one. Part one, we talked about milk, chocolate milk, regular milk, I know, but they have low fat milk, strawberry What about kids who are lactose intolerant, as is the majority of black and brown children, right?
Unknown:And great point on that as well, most white milk or chocolate milk and strawberry milk, a lot of the management companies don't look at all those other companies just because they cost too much. And you know, if poisoning
Dr Almitra Berry:literally poisoning children's bodies, you know when we know that, and I don't know what the percentage is, and if I need to look it up, I will, but, but black, brown, Latino and Asian children in particular, have a much higher incidence of lactose intolerance than white children. European. White Europeans are the ones who domesticated cows and drink that milk. So they're they're okay with that. Rest of Us wouldn't drink in that stuff. And yet, we are, we are we are giving children only one option, and that is milk, basically, milk or water, you know? And in some places, you can't trust the water unless it's bottled, so drink the poison or drink the poison or go without anything.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. And to your point, it's, you know, they couple years ago, many of the school districts, and particularly state of Michigan, lay it in the water. So most people, most kids, now, and it's like, it's undetectable in black families or communities that experience poverty, they won't do it. I went into one and having the facilities background as well. And it's like, wait a minute, this school is full of asbestos. Well, it would cost too much to get you worried about the cost, where you literally are making kids and then imagine walking into, you know, the phone type stuff that was on the sides in the cafeteria, which would condense some of the noise, but that stuff was full of asbestos or the flooring, and if they, if they polish the floor, or if they remove it, it brings those particles up in the air. Now you're exposed to it, you know. So it's so many things, and it's like, who's going to eat in an environment like that? You know, we wouldn't
Dr Almitra Berry:eat in a restaurant that we knew had asbestos floating in the air, absolutely. But. Certainly not as as as educators and administrators or school board members. We're not going to do that to our bodies, but we're subjecting our children to to be in that environment. And
Unknown:when's the last time that it's like you say it is, hey, administration, when's the last time we had an inspection of our facility? Oh, everything looks great. Now we're not talking about what's clean on lurks, what's behind the scenes. You know, yeah, same thing with the food. It's like, if they walked in, if they literally left our podcast and went to their district, and it's like, yeah, I like to meet with food service director. Oh, salads over there, there's pasta over there, there's hamburgers, there's nuggets. You know, they going to always eat the hamburgers, the they going to eat the pizza, and they going to eat the nuggets every time. But what are you introducing, as far as other things is concerned culturally, that you can introduce them to, you know, the paninis and, you know, many other things that they see in major restaurants. Or, you know, why not have a meatless Monday and try it Tuesday instead of like you said, many of the things they'll get, you know, some will come there every day, Monday through Friday, they'll get nachos and pour melted cheese over it and call it a walking taco, and that's all. It's like, oh
Dr Almitra Berry:yeah. I think in junior high school. I hate junior high school, I ate more what we probably would call mystery meat burritos and hot dogs, because I would go through the snack bar line, not the lunch the the school lunch line, because I could, I could pay for my lunch. And at the end of the snack bar line, probably 29 days out of 30, there were a couple of guys work in the line who didn't have money, and so they were hitting people up as they came through, through the line, for their leftover change. So I think that there are ways now, especially with ID cards, that that stigma is gone. Nobody's begging at the end. Well, I hope not. But if nobody's if there's no cash handling, then that is that is gone well,
Unknown:and, oh my goodness, hopefully they, they're trying to get away from from the cash. Some still bring it, but it's like usually, and Sad to say, there's where you look at the system as well. You know, around the holidays, you know, hands get sticky. And so if you're not doing that audit, and you're wondering why it's short here and short there, and if they've been working there a number of years, you can almost see the system working, you know, in a bad way.
Dr Almitra Berry:Just, just keep in mind that $2.1 million worth of chicken wings.
Unknown:Oh, my goodness, exactly, exactly, right. We're in Illinois.
Dr Almitra Berry:There was something I wanted to tell my listeners before we before we started. And then I have one more question as we wrap, and that is that you may recognize Dennis's voice because he is the voice of the introduction of the 3e podcast. So when I said it's taken me a while to get you on here, outside of being the voice that introduces the podcast, and has done so for what is now going to be, I think 119 episodes. Wow. Yeah, you are your Episode 119, you know. So a one. Thank you for being the voice of the podcast. I've truly appreciated it and for coming on the show as a guest. Last question, I promise last question. This is one that I ask every guest comes because we keep talking about food service. And I could, you know, I haven't had my oatmeal yet this morning, so I need to go. I need to eat my steel cut oats that are sitting in the slow cooker. I ask every guest a question that really I stole from Dr Angela Davis. She said, I am changing the things I cannot accept. So I asked guests, what is something that you cannot accept. And how can our listeners help support change in that area?
Unknown:Yeah, I really appreciate that quote. And as I think about it, from the standpoint of children is concerned, you and I may be able to go through life or a day, and you know, you really can survive off of a spoonful of honey each day with water and get away with it, but with children who don't know and just coming to school, maybe it's their first day at school for either from the pre K all the way through 12th grade, what I can accept is every zip code in every community around this country that a student can't walk into a educational facility and get a nutritious, healthy meal no matter what their background is, their economic situation, their skin color is There, they should be able to experience food security in a healthy environment and enjoy what we are able to do today.
Dr Almitra Berry:Yeah, that's beautiful. Dennis, thank you.
Unknown:My pleasure, my pleasure. And in the words of James Earl Jones, you've done a fantastic job. You know, I.
Dr Almitra Berry:Yeah, you almost sound like him
Unknown:that comes in. But we must go, you know, or coming to America like I said. James O Jones, I dearly miss that man. But yeah, your introduction for your podcast and all the wonderful podcast shows that you have. Thank
Dr Almitra Berry:you, equity warriors out there, I encourage you to take some action in your own communities advocate for healthier school meal programs that prioritize equity and access for every child, and whether it's reaching out to your local school boards, as Dennis suggested, or supporting initiatives or simply educating other people about the importance of nutrition in education, every effort, no matter how small, every effort counts together, we can create a brighter future for our children and making sure that every single student has the opportunity to thrive in the classroom because their bellies are full of good food. Now visit us@patreon.com forward slash three podcast for more resources. Again, Dennis is going to give us some more information to share. You don't have to pay to be a subscriber. Over there, that's where you get all the good stuff. And then continue the conversation on educational equity, equity. Join me again next week, next episode. I'll be sitting down with Christina Pipkin as part of my mission to elevate new and young voices. And then, if you've got a question, a topic you'd like to have covered, or a special request, make sure you look down in the notes, find that link and send me a text. You know, I want to hear from you. And as always, don't worry about the things you cannot change. Change the things you can no longer accept, and that's a wrap for today's episode of The 3d podcast. Now here's how you can make a real difference. First, smash that subscribe button. It's free. It's easy, just do it. Second, share the show with anyone you know who cares about education. And third, consider becoming a supporter of the show. Together, we're not just talking about change. We're making it happen. Make a donation today to be part of that mission and change, and I'll catch you next time.
